Come and say hi!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Michael Reed, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. Michael, MJU,

    Thanks for your responses. How is the assemblying process? Michael can you explain a bit about it please, I would like to know the level of complexity of it and what is the risk of damaging the machine (I saw that it is shipped disassembled)

  2. Michael Reed

    Michael Reed Staff Member

    Hey Julio,

    The printer will be mostly assembled using t-bolt configuration connections (see the image). All of the bolts will have hex sockets and the kit will ship with an appropriate screwdriver - no other tools should be required. There will be a specific order in which some things should be assembled to make things easier but we will release a very thorough instruction set through the wiki (so anyone can add any hints or tips they come up with themselves). The overall assembly shouldn't be difficult or lengthy, I've been assembling all of my prototypes well under two hours (though admittedly I've done it many many times so I may have an advantage there).


    I'm also setting up the system so it's very simple to tune some parameters such as belt tension, wire routing and gantry alignment without having to pull the whole machine apart. Some things will require removal of the outer shell but no actual infrastructure will have to be disassembled so that you don't accidentally bump out some of your adjustments just because you want to upgrade your end-stop or something.

    Damaging the components really shouldn't be a problem unless you really over tighten some of the bolts as the acrylic could crack. But to combat this as well, the printers will ship with some laser cut pieces designed specifically for you to play with, test around and break specifically so that you don't accidentally do it on your actual printer.
  3. Mike,

    Thanks for the response. Another question, is there any chance to have the representation in Ecuador for your product? Also, I have a concern regarding DHL (the ecuadorian branch), even though they are a Courier service for some unknown reason they treat packages as usual importations and they have to clear customs, for that purpose they will charge the customer for clearance process and taxes (completely independent from the fee that the customer already pay to the shipper), so my question to you is: what would be the exact item description of the printer that will be included in the shipping documents? I would like to know in order to find out how much extra money it will cost me to clear customs. Of course if you can write zero as cost because it is a gift it would help a lot too, lol :)

    Thanks and Regards
  4. Michael Reed

    Michael Reed Staff Member

    Hey Julio,

    No promises just yet but as far as I'm aware, the Kickstarter legal definitions specify that a pledge is a "donation" and as such whatever we send you to fulfil a pledge is legally a gift. So you should be fine on that front. Is there a particular description that would be beneficial or detrimental to you? We haven't generated the packing slips yet so if there's a particular word that we shouldn't use to avoid you paying a bit we'll see if we can legally avoid it.

  5. Mike,

    I have dug a lot on the importation issues in Ecuador and it all comes down to having a declare shipment value of less tan 400 US (final total) and a package that weights less tan 4 Kilos. The description is not really important, it is only the declared value and the weight of the package. Is it possible to accomplish both? Another question, is the device good for printing traces for TFQN packaging? Can we use conductive tapes also to bond the parts to the traces instead of soldering? And last one, what will be the cost of the replacement cartridges or will they be refillable? In any case do you have an approximate cost?

  6. Michael Reed

    Michael Reed Staff Member

    Hey Julio,

    Unfortunately the total shipping weight of the printer package will be more than 4kg. It will most likely be somewhere between 8kg and 10kg - I'm sorry but there's not much we could do to reduce that weight. I'm not sure we're we will land on the declared value of the printer at this stage, I'll have to defer that question to our legal counsel. Off the top of my head, I think the biggest issue with declaring the cost of the product that low is that if something bad happened in transit and the parts were damaged or the package was lost, we would only be able to claim up to $400USD on the shipping insurance. Sorry that probably wasn't what you wanted to hear but let me know if there's some other way we could make the process a bit smoother for you.

    TQFN is currently a bit beyond what we have been able to achieve thus far, TSSOP (0.625mm pitch spacing) is the finest resolution footprint we have created thus far. Conductive tapes are fine to use as are conductive glues/pastes - we've tried both of these along with hand soldering and reflow soldering and all of them work without a problem.

    We still don't quite have a definitive price on the replacement cartridges but my best guess at the moment is that a pair of cartridges (1 Silver salt and 1 reduction agent) will be ~$60USD. You can refill your cartridges yourself if you so desire but the cost of getting the materials, cleaning out your inkjet nozzles and then refilling it yourself will probably be a lot more than $60USD - we're not looking to make much profit at all on our cartridges. Also the Silver salt is poisonous, so we would only recommend giving it a go if you have a safe 'laboratory area', are familiar with basic chemistry and are quite confident in your abilities to not harm yourself or anyone else.
  7. Hi Cartesian,
    I like the electronic and I have seen a wonderful young and pasionate team in Cartesian.
    It's a wonderful project and I am thinking to buy one in the future.
    However I see other printers like you for example:
    AgIc other KickStarted and
    Methode have products seems you.
    I can see a lot of competence in the future, take this in count.
    I think you need to give us a secure product with a good guarante and goods conductive inks if you want to sale yours products.

    Good luck.

    Best Regards
  8. Ariel

    Ariel Staff Member

    Thanks for the kind worlds José. I hope you do end up buying an Argentum, because using mine is just about the most fun I've ever had with any 3D printer. The last time I came up with something I wanted to print, I was so excited my hands we're almost shaking too much to assemble the board!

    You've found two good alternatives to the Argentum, both Agic and Methode. Agic in fact uses essentially the same ink that Methode supplies (but from another supplier, who's name escapes me now). Unfortunately for them, their 1 part ink (which contains silver nano particles) has some limitations over our 2 part ink (being silver nitrate + ascoric acid).

    Besides the fact that their ink is very expensive, because it's hard to manufacture, it can also only be printed onto some special types of paper and plastics, doesn't have very high conductivity, and can't be soldered to. We originally looked at using this type of ink, but when we realised it isn't compatible with solder we decided that it wasn't good enough.
  9. Hi Mike,

    Now that the first version has shipped and folks like Dave are getting their machines up and running, when do you expect the source to be made available, under what licensing terms, etc?

    Aside: In ironing out the details, you may find to be useful.

    Is anyone from Cartesian Co going to the Open Hardware Summit in Rome next week?


  10. For some reason introducing myself wasn't the first thing I did. My real name is Noah and I'm a junior (high school) from Connecticut.
    The Argentum looks like an awesome piece of technology not just for printing circuit boards but possibly printing bio structures as well (I have high hopes).
    Are there any Argentum related things happening in New England besides MakerFaire?

    Keep up the good work!
  11. Michael Reed

    Michael Reed Staff Member

    Hey Andrew,

    We're going to release the design files along with the 2nd batch of printers - we'll also probably make some very minor design changes for the 2nd batch (in the mechanics) so there will be an Mk1.0 and Mk1.1 release. If anyone needs design files for any particular parts though - I'm happy to send them through; I just want to make sure the files I release will be usable, well organized etc.

    The software at the moment is being managed by Michael Shiel and is all set up in a Git waiting to be made public - we'll probably open this alongside the mechanics but maybe sooner.

    I honestly cannot remember the licensing terms we ended up deciding on... I'll have to get back to you on that but a couple principles that we were going for are:
    - Share Alike - derivatives must share the same license
    - Attribution - If you do make something, you need to attribute us so we can ride the coat tails of your awesome creations

    We are a little worried about commercial redistribution but we also know that it's something very important to the open source community. Ultimately I'm not going to be the one making the decision (I just like to build things... silly legal decisions are for someone else haha). I'll try and get someone else to get back to you.

    Thanks for the link as well! I'm refreshing myself up on everything now.

    Unfortunately no, I don't think we'll have time for Rome, 2 of our co-founders are currently in the United States (Milwaukee right now I believe). So it might have to wait until next time.

    Feel free to give us some more suggestions on these things though! It's always appreciated.

    I'll get our two co-founders that are touring the East coast let you know what's happening, they've been visiting a few hackerspaces and whatnot as well though so maybe you can run into them somewhere else as well.

    We've actually had a few people interested in bio-structures but all of us are Mech/Elec/Software/Mechatronics engineers so we don't know the first thing about what's useful & what's not. Feel free to give us some suggestions on what that community is looking for so we can see what's possible :D
    Andrew Plumb likes this.
  12. Johns

    Johns Staff Member

    Hi Noah. Unfortunately we can't make it to the Rhode Island Maker Faire. We'll be at the Atlanta Maker Faire next weekend but I guess thats a bit of a way away.

    Bio-printing is something that's definitely possible. We've actually talked to a few people about this already. The only thing we're not sure about is if any live cells will survive getting ejected from a thermal inkjet cartridge since they work by flashing a small amount of the liquid to steam to eject the drop of ink. I'd be really interested to see of it work though, what one biologist suggested was ejecting a solution of bacteria into a growth media and seeing if anything grows.

    You might be interested in looking at the POSAM project. It's a open-source micro arrayer based on a epson pizeo printhead. Pizeo printheads use displacement to eject a drop so avoid the heating issue. You can read mores about it here.
    Archimedes likes this.
  13. Yah. That was my dad. He's fairly certain it will work with a hardy type of bacteria like E. Coli.
  14. Hi Mike,

    Thanks for the update!

    I can appreciate the dilemma, on where to draw that line between commercial-permissive and non-commercial criteria. My day-job is the completely NDA-protected, export-controlled world of semiconductor design, so participating in the open source community at large helps preserve my sanity. ;-)

    • Whatever you choose to do - above all else - please be clear in communicating what is being provided as Open Source (as per definition, etc) vs some-source-for-customer-reference-and-intellectual-curiosity.
    • Your biggest "weapon" in establishing and protecting your turf is your identity - your Trademarks. In many respects, your trademarks are your guarantee of quality and support. Everything else is (relatively) transient.
      • Chris Anderson of 3D Robotics (aka DIY Drones) might be a useful example of how to set and manage expectations with the clone-producers.
      • Arduino has whole sections of their FAQ dedicated to it:
    • Anything you choose to patent (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer) could be licensed to permit free (including commercial) use in projects and products adhering to the Open Hardware Definition. The "payment for use" is in social capital. There's nothing to prevent you also licensing it to other companies for use in closed-source products (for financial remuneration) as you own the patent(s).
    • As it relates to software (and probably the hardware) Digia's QT API (formerly Trolltech) is an interesting example of how dual-licensing of intellectual property can work.
    I can't make it to the Open Hardware Summit this year either, so I'll watching all the videos captured, reviewing presentation material, from afar as well.

    Looking forward to playing with the source when (not if) you release it! ;-)

  15. Johns

    Johns Staff Member

    I remember now! It was great to talk to you and your dad...

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